Sometimes it can be tough starting a business, a new book idea, or even marketing yourself to an audience when you need to make all of the most crucial decisions alone. Even when you do get advice from others, they might not share the same vision or goals as you.
I’m curious how you all get feedback on your stories, companies, projects, or goals? How do you determine what is and isn’t worthy advice in the vital decision-making process? I can’t wait to hear your thoughts. ~ WM
Hi Winston and everyone. Lots of great comments and advice here! As writers I think we all share similar experiences and insecurities about getting feedback and marketing. I find for me the key is weighing the feedback I get based on how invested the person is in me/my writing.
I’ve taken a few college writing courses but found that the feedback was marginal at best because a random classmate just doesn’t care about your work as much as you do. On the other hand, my aunt (who is an avid reader) just gave one of my stories the full editor treatment. Wow, was that eye opening! She found a gapping plot hole and said I was “trying to hard” in a few parts. It was sage and great advice that has helped me improve.
I think constructive criticism from a reader that really wants to help is invaluable. Once you do get brave enough to put your work out there gathering readers definitely the hard part. I read once that you have to work for every reader that you get. It is so true. And I agree with LJK and Winston, reading out loud even to yourself is hugely helpful!
Hey Nikki, you’ve revealed a really good point that I don’t think we’ve covered and that is WHO is giving the feedback. This has to be just as important as the feedback itself, or at least informs you as the writer in how to process the advice/feedback/criticism.
The story about your aunt helping you is so great. It’s wonderful to have that level of support with what we do. Dedicating that amount of time to assist in the craft is, like you said, invaluable. I’ve found that very few people will provide such insight so we must cherish it!
What is your take on writing groups? I’ve had mixed feelings but I’m wondering if there’s a method that works for some people.
Thanks for commenting, Nikki! Very good perspective.
Thank you, Winston! I love this space you've created here for us. You are so welcoming it is awesome! I'm with you on the writing groups. There are definitely pros and cons but overall, I've found that the benefits I've received from them are not equal to the amount of work it takes. The "exchange stories and give opinions on each other's work method" I haven't found very helpful. Maybe I just haven't found the right group/approach yet. Is there a method that has worked for you?
I’m so glad you enjoy this space and feel welcome. I really enjoy speaking with each of you and getting to know your thoughts on things. I 100% agree that the benefit of a writing group tends to not equal the amount of effort. I work with another writer but since it’s one on one it feels more comparable and equal. Would it work better if a group decided to focus on one person’s story each session? Even still, the more people in the group the longer between opportunities for you to submit. I don’t know. Seems like it would need to stay fairly small, maybe 3-4 max.
Marketing myself to a market is something I did a lot of in the past, trying (sometimes successfully) to get stories in print publications. I'd start by reading new work aloud to a writers' group - in-person groups - and see how it goes. I try to read my stuff as if I never saw it before. Other writers' feedback helps. Then I tried, back then, to sell it to strangers. Intros are vital, as is following up when someone says "I like your work but for our mag..." and writing to 'spec' ... The main thing is to hang on to confidence, and seek clarity in all exchanges involved in selling a story. Keep at it, and also be willing to listen to reasons a piece is rejected.
I like your point about being open-minded on why a piece was rejected. I used to despise revision and so I would think that once I finished something for the first time, it was set in stone that way. But now I’ve come to enjoy the editing/feedback process and how much it improves the work.
Seek clarity. This is something I struggle with because I default to the authority of others since “they must know better”. However, like you said, I think it is wise to ask questions to understand why something is the way it is, rather than assuming someone else has all the answers.
Great comments! How would you like to be addressed, LJK? I’m not sure if we’ve officially met previously, but I appreciate your insight over the past few discussions.
Hi - I'm unsure what an "official" meeting is online, but consider that achieved to some degree in a few comments between us. Do people call you Winston? My nickname is LJ, which I sometimes use as a byline, too. Since it's not immediately obvious, I'll add that I'm a woman, and I'm sure other bits of info float around.
Your comment about thinking others must "know better" about writing was familiar. I felt the same way in the first writers' group I attended, since most there were about 10 years older than me. But I saw during our first public reading that everyone had the same age of nerves - fresh as a daisy. Seems an equalizer often shows up. Thanks for this platform and for your own sharing!
Hello, LJ! Yep, I go by Winston. Nice to meet you! Haha
And that is true about an equalizer showing up. I’ve witnessed this a lot in classroom settings where someone has to be the “leader” and no one volunteers so then it’s that awkward moment where someone gets chosen haha.
I’ve only read my work out loud to a group once. It was a writing retreat called Futurescapes here in Utah at the Sundance Resort. We had to go around the table and read our first chapters. It was oddly surreal. I did better than I thought I would, but I was not expecting it. I do record my stuff in audio now, which actually helps in my writing process.
Classroom settings, huh? Currently? As student or teacher? It is rather idle curiosity that has me wondering, and of course you don't have to answer. At the moment, I picture you as a "leader" of some kind.
Utah is a beautiful state and it's easy to imagine the Sundance Resort as a stunning place. I'm glad your reading was successful and led to you using audio equipment as part of your writing process. Things seem different when said aloud.
My first big reading was scary to me, but I made it through my short story - to be met with dead silence from the audience of maybe 60 people. I wanted to die. Then they burst into cheers. Very dramatic. I went to the bar there as soon as possible. Whew!
Just read your Part Two of the Doge story, and wonder how I can read Part One. This part seemed a little rushed to me, but you have a lot on your plate! Thanks for writing to me here. Do you ever read work on the general ello site? Do you even have time to read? Lol...
As for the classroom thing, I’m prior military and during my time in service we would have virtual workshops or annual training courses that we would do in a “classroom” environment. I’m not retired, I served for 10 years and then decided to change my direction a little bit.
I love Utah for the most part. It’s got it’s flaws, but I do love looking at the mountains.
The audio thing has definitely been an eye-opening endeavor. Your story about reading to a group of 60 people is terrifying and also very inspirational. I’m glad it ended in approval.
I’ve never been on Ello. What is it? I do try to read every day. I have some time set aside for reading here on Substack, some time for physical books, and some time for audiobooks (commute, dog walking). I’ve found that reading keeps me engaged with words and motivates me to write more.
Thanks for the link, Winston. I enjoyed Part One about Doge more than Part Two; it felt a bit more loved or something. Can't put my finger on it. The line "Much wow" will probably be repeated by me several times - good one! I'll also read Part Two again and see if it settles better.
Ello is an art site I was led to by a poet over a year ago. Since then, I've posted several stories there, some photos I took, and even some memes. I was led to Substack from there, following a lit mag link left by 'tvansantana' about 2 weeks or so ago. I'm glad I hit the link and supplied an email address, though I've glimpsed so much it's almost overwhelming. Lots going on here. I use Ello as 'xlntljk' - a silly username that's a partial holdover from two more art sites I use, one used for the past 13 years.
Yes, public readings are always a challenge, and always fun. I also think reading in general (along with some kind of sharing) is important for writers to do. It ranks close to always observing life in general, and taking part when desired and possible.
Experiences of many kinds add a lot to a writer's repertoire. Writing from different POVs, like that of a "doge" and an ape in Death Valley, shows how pleasantly fruitful that can be, and also how good a challenge writing sometimes is.
What is your present trajectory? Mine is that of a retired old lady, lol. Lots of memories and a few current projects.... (I remain curious [and slow] about subscriptions around here, too.)
I'm a little late here but I wanted to first say thank you to all the commenters, and of course to you Winston for opening up a little corner of the internet for writers. I'm very grateful. There is a lot of good advice here. I don't have any of my own to share, but I do have some from Stephen King's "On Writing." He says that his first draft is always written with the door closed, meaning he doesn't show anyone his work while it's in process for the first go round. I may be adding my own spin on it, but I think it's because the idea is fragile. We're likely to give in to the whims of any critique, change the whole story up, and muck up the idea that brought us to the page to begin with. When he writes his second draft, he writes with the door open. He has a few trusted readers, namely his wife, and he takes her advice to heart. I think we have to find that person or those people who care about us enough to be honest, but believe in what we're doing. Not just any person.
Along those lines, I also think that we should expect to try and fail hundreds if not thousands of times. There are so few examples of writers who hit it out of the park on the first novel, essay, poem. I think if we're putting work out and getting feedback, even if it's negative, we have won the battle. I started submitting short stories to science fiction/speculative fiction magazines this year. I've only gotten rejections, and with each one I told myself, "You're doing it. You're a writer." Because that is the path that every hero writer you read has gone down before you. I'm so proud of everyone here for doing it at all.
Hey Shaina, thank you for joining in on the discussion. I’m so glad you’re here!
I like the concept that you brought up about nurturing an idea behind closed doors in the beginning. The one pet peeve I have is when I tell someone my idea and they say, “Oh, that sounds like _____”. It wouldn’t bother me if it was in a way that was supportive, but it comes off as “oh, that’s already been done before, therefore it’s not that original.” I’m not sure if I’m reading into it too much, but I feel like it’s one of those things where you have to just end up writing the story so that you can explore the ideas, themes and settings to make it your own. Then if someone criticizes it for being derivative or a clone, maybe it is or maybe it isn’t, but at least now you have an idea of what to fix.
You’re so right about the positives of failing repeatedly. I honestly don’t even try to view it as “failure” anymore. It’s just the next step in the process, the next iteration, the next growth stage. I wonder if the failure mindset is a byproduct of an educational system that instilled the idea that if we failed a test or exam then that was it, you got your grade and you moved on. I don’t feel like that is very conducive to actual learning. I’ve had to unlearn the way I learned in my youth to now try to plan and work iteratively and enjoy the whole process rather than the “I passed” instant gratification that was ingrained in me early on. I may be way off the mark here as I’m just thinking out loud at this point. Let me know if I am! Haha
Keep submitting your stories!! You’ll find a home eventually. You’ve already made the right choice of having your own Substack. Like you said, every writer has gone down a similar path at some point in their lives. It’s the journey not the destination!
I would LOVE feedback. In fact, I would embrace it. I'm always asking for people to leave a comment. That way, I know I'm not just writing to the crickets in the night. In fact, today's the one day in which I received comments, and that was for a comment I left on someone else's page. Go figger. In the meantime, I can't get them to leave a comment on my own stuff. It makes you wonder if it's because it's that bad, or they just can't be bothered. But when it comes to beginning a new project, well, there's no one I can turn to for advice. I tend to write stories that are long, and of interest to me. I mean, who else would be interested in the Mau Mau uprising of the 50s? I try to change things up so that it's interesting to me. I'm of the opinion that if I write something for me, maybe someone else will like it. I always listen to whatever anyone has to say about the stories I write. As to whether or not I take that advice and implement it, well, that depends on what advice they give me. Is it story, plot, or structure? You don't have to take the advice, but you owe it to yourself to at least listen to it. In the meantime, I wait...
Hey Ben, nice to meet you! Thank you for taking the time to comment. I feel your pain. Sometimes it’s very difficult to know if you’re doing something worthwhile if no one even acknowledges your work. This is one of the biggest turn offs for me with social media. I lose track of what I find valuable on there because everything is gauged and shared based on likes and whatever other hidden algorithms are at play. This has been the biggest driver for my love of Substack so far. I know that the work that I put out there is going straight to the people that want to read it most. Getting those people to subscribe in the first place is definitely an uphill climb.
I’m very interested in what you like to write? I noticed you have a Substack as well. I’m going to subscribe and check out some of your work. I’m all about supporting other writers, and I know how difficult it can be to get that support sometimes. The week after next I’ll be hosting a Meet and Greet for the community. I would love to have you drop in on that thread to pitch your Substack and meet some of the other writers.
Thanks for the greeting, Winston. I agree with everything you say about social media. I mean, I'm old by most peoples' reconning of age, I'd guess. Because I'm old, I like to tell myself I'm not as addicted to social media the same way my children seem to be--(they're in their 30s)--but all this marketing and no results? It does make one think they've become addicted just marketing themselves. I'm trying to look at it as a job. I'm not retired yet, but I'm off work at the moment. (See my piece: It was an Accident, Steve.) I tend to write long stories that end in heartache, as in: a lesson learned. "THE AFRICAN SONGBOOK: A Tragedy In 5 Acts" is a tragic (hence the title) love story, set during the Mau Mau troubles in Kenya, during the 1950's. I subtitled it "in 5 Acts" because I modelled the structure on a Shakespearean play. I don't know if it worked, but it worked for me. A few people questioned me on some things, and I simply replied, "Because that's the way I wanted it." Truth is, it would've fucked up the structure of the story. But they don't know that for the simple reason that they don't look at things like story and structure. I don't think anybody can give you advice on that. I read a book by James Dickie, (DELIVERANCE), only his 2nd novel in 20 years. It was the structure of the thing that drew me to it, as well as the story. I'm taking the plunge and doing video readings. It's ballsy, but then you have to tell yourself not to let the "trolls" get to you--oh but wait, we don't have that sort of negativity here on SUBSTACK, do we? As for your invite, I will do my best to drop by. I'm home most days. But I put it on my desk calendar. My wife's going in for day surgery next week and needs that week for recovery they're telling her. So I'm not going anywhere.
It is basically a second job. You’re approaching it correctly, for sure.
The African Songbook sounds really good! I’ll have to check it out.
Story structure is really important and hard to conceptualize for some people that aren’t familiar with a lot of the craft of writing. It reminds me of a period where I would submit the first chapter to a novel and get critiques like, “But I don’t understand what it’s about?” Which on the one hand, maybe that is legit constructive feedback, but on the other hand that’s the point of the whole book and not just the first chapter. So I stopped submitting chapters for critique because it didn’t make sense to me anymore.
I really hope Substack remains a positive community for us. I haven’t encountered any trolls as of yet, but there are features for handling it in a classy way. Also, why would someone subscribe and comment only to be rude? Lol (I guess that’s what trolling is in a nutshell)
I wish you and your wife all the best during the surgery and week of recovery. Can’t wait to learn more about you and your work!
Great question! For me, when I'm working on a project, I try to figure out what I don't know or understand about it yet. If it's something I can teach myself, I learn it. If it's something currently over my head, I seek out experts (with the understanding that even "experts" don't always have the right answers). I always ask those "experts" to justify their advice before I decide whether to take it. If it makes sense to me, I'm more likely to try it. If it sounds wrong for the situation or feels off in some way, I will probably avoid it. If they refuse to explain their answers, it's a huge red flag. Anyone who plays the "because I said so" or "because that's just how it's done" game does not deserve your trust. So, hear everyone out, weigh all the advice, and let your instincts and values make the final call--not the name, reputation, or credentials of the one giving the advice.
I've had a lot of issues in the past--in writing and other endeavors--where I got questionable help from professionals and wound up worse off than if I had just gone it alone. At the time, I didn't have the confidence to trust my gut and my abilities--and I didn't have the nerve to tell people in perceived positions of authority where to stick their bad advice ;-) I wanted to believe in them because I didn't want to have to do the work on my own--it seemed too daunting. There's still a lot to learn. But now that I'm older and hopefully a little wiser, I have fewer of those issues and it seems less scary. As time goes on, it has become easier to stand up for my vision, even if it's not shared by others. It's always easier to let someone else take the blame for one's failures, but I'd rather be wrong on my terms than on someone else's. And there is a good chance my terms are the right ones after all--for me, at least.
Very well put, Jacquie. I suppose there are people who have paved the way in almost every industry. There’s no need to recreate the wheel in terms of figuring out how to do something (especially in the age of YouTube). It then falls on personal goals and what gives us satisfaction at the end of the day. Like, as an example, no one says that someone who writes a book has to show it to anyone. Maybe someone just wants to write a book for the sake of reflecting on their thoughts at a later date. But I’d say for a majority of writers, we do want to show our work to someone, and those two paths would involve radically different choices. So it’s like you said, hear out the so-called “experts” but then filter their advice through what it is you’re trying to accomplish.
I’m happy to hear that you’ve gained confidence in your own abilities. It takes a lot of courage for someone to put out a story or essay with the understanding that they’ve opened themselves up to criticism. I wonder if a lot of writers realize that or not? Most of the friends I’ve talked to about writing say they are afraid of getting criticized. This is important to the advice question, because I think at some level we have to be willing to open up and take the negative aspects along with the good. The first step is being confident enough to know that someone’s criticism isn’t a poor reflection on you as a person, but an opportunity to become better. It’s a divorce of the Ego and the Self. I’ve gotten a lot better at this lately, but it’s always a work in progress.
I’ve had a lot of advice in my time, some I took but most of my endeavors were by trial and error. It’s good to listen to many so that you are well informed and curiosities are fulfilled. Successful people have great ideas but have probably failed along the way. My advice to you would be to gather all the info you can about the project or endeavor, let it soak in awhile, then go with your gut, it’s usually right. Don’t let fear determine the decision but know that fear makes you cautious. I would love to write but I wouldn’t even know where to begin, any advice?
Thanks, Sandra. That is good advice. Weighing the pros and cons of a decision by letting it ruminate in the mind is a great first step to choosing the right path. I think what I’ve learned over the past year has been to just start doing the thing you want to do and you’ll learn as you go. There are benefits to reading and listening to what other people have to say, but doing it is on another level of growth. So you’re totally right in regards to trial and error, or iterative development as I like to think of it. There’s no failing really, it’s all a part of the improvement process.
As for writing, or more specifically where to begin with writing if you don’t know what to write, I’d say get a notebook or open a blank document on your computer and start with the words, phrases, or ideas that speak to you. This helps me with word association and externalizing my thoughts. This might give you some insight into what exactly it is that you’d want to write about.
Do you know what you’d like to write about? Sometimes reading in the genre or genres you’d like to write will help build a foundation but you have to take care not to reduce your work to being just a derivative of what you’re reading, unless that’s the goal. Hopefully that helps on some level.
I follow up with the person who requested the quote, or processed the transaction. It’s usually the outside sales person or the purchasing agent with a dealer. You get feedback on your product from the main person doing the selling and purchasing of your products. Just reach out to them and ask, how did we look, who’s my competition, what can I do to earn your business.
Awesome 😎 this is a specialized but applicable formula to requesting feedback. I like it. Very direct approach that would likely get the results you’re looking for.
Thank you! I appreciate your perspective. I’ll see how I can implement this method moving forward.
Hi Winston and everyone. Lots of great comments and advice here! As writers I think we all share similar experiences and insecurities about getting feedback and marketing. I find for me the key is weighing the feedback I get based on how invested the person is in me/my writing.
I’ve taken a few college writing courses but found that the feedback was marginal at best because a random classmate just doesn’t care about your work as much as you do. On the other hand, my aunt (who is an avid reader) just gave one of my stories the full editor treatment. Wow, was that eye opening! She found a gapping plot hole and said I was “trying to hard” in a few parts. It was sage and great advice that has helped me improve.
I think constructive criticism from a reader that really wants to help is invaluable. Once you do get brave enough to put your work out there gathering readers definitely the hard part. I read once that you have to work for every reader that you get. It is so true. And I agree with LJK and Winston, reading out loud even to yourself is hugely helpful!
Hey Nikki, you’ve revealed a really good point that I don’t think we’ve covered and that is WHO is giving the feedback. This has to be just as important as the feedback itself, or at least informs you as the writer in how to process the advice/feedback/criticism.
The story about your aunt helping you is so great. It’s wonderful to have that level of support with what we do. Dedicating that amount of time to assist in the craft is, like you said, invaluable. I’ve found that very few people will provide such insight so we must cherish it!
What is your take on writing groups? I’ve had mixed feelings but I’m wondering if there’s a method that works for some people.
Thanks for commenting, Nikki! Very good perspective.
Thank you, Winston! I love this space you've created here for us. You are so welcoming it is awesome! I'm with you on the writing groups. There are definitely pros and cons but overall, I've found that the benefits I've received from them are not equal to the amount of work it takes. The "exchange stories and give opinions on each other's work method" I haven't found very helpful. Maybe I just haven't found the right group/approach yet. Is there a method that has worked for you?
I’m so glad you enjoy this space and feel welcome. I really enjoy speaking with each of you and getting to know your thoughts on things. I 100% agree that the benefit of a writing group tends to not equal the amount of effort. I work with another writer but since it’s one on one it feels more comparable and equal. Would it work better if a group decided to focus on one person’s story each session? Even still, the more people in the group the longer between opportunities for you to submit. I don’t know. Seems like it would need to stay fairly small, maybe 3-4 max.
Marketing myself to a market is something I did a lot of in the past, trying (sometimes successfully) to get stories in print publications. I'd start by reading new work aloud to a writers' group - in-person groups - and see how it goes. I try to read my stuff as if I never saw it before. Other writers' feedback helps. Then I tried, back then, to sell it to strangers. Intros are vital, as is following up when someone says "I like your work but for our mag..." and writing to 'spec' ... The main thing is to hang on to confidence, and seek clarity in all exchanges involved in selling a story. Keep at it, and also be willing to listen to reasons a piece is rejected.
I like your point about being open-minded on why a piece was rejected. I used to despise revision and so I would think that once I finished something for the first time, it was set in stone that way. But now I’ve come to enjoy the editing/feedback process and how much it improves the work.
Seek clarity. This is something I struggle with because I default to the authority of others since “they must know better”. However, like you said, I think it is wise to ask questions to understand why something is the way it is, rather than assuming someone else has all the answers.
Great comments! How would you like to be addressed, LJK? I’m not sure if we’ve officially met previously, but I appreciate your insight over the past few discussions.
Hi - I'm unsure what an "official" meeting is online, but consider that achieved to some degree in a few comments between us. Do people call you Winston? My nickname is LJ, which I sometimes use as a byline, too. Since it's not immediately obvious, I'll add that I'm a woman, and I'm sure other bits of info float around.
Your comment about thinking others must "know better" about writing was familiar. I felt the same way in the first writers' group I attended, since most there were about 10 years older than me. But I saw during our first public reading that everyone had the same age of nerves - fresh as a daisy. Seems an equalizer often shows up. Thanks for this platform and for your own sharing!
Hello, LJ! Yep, I go by Winston. Nice to meet you! Haha
And that is true about an equalizer showing up. I’ve witnessed this a lot in classroom settings where someone has to be the “leader” and no one volunteers so then it’s that awkward moment where someone gets chosen haha.
I’ve only read my work out loud to a group once. It was a writing retreat called Futurescapes here in Utah at the Sundance Resort. We had to go around the table and read our first chapters. It was oddly surreal. I did better than I thought I would, but I was not expecting it. I do record my stuff in audio now, which actually helps in my writing process.
Hi, Winston...
Classroom settings, huh? Currently? As student or teacher? It is rather idle curiosity that has me wondering, and of course you don't have to answer. At the moment, I picture you as a "leader" of some kind.
Utah is a beautiful state and it's easy to imagine the Sundance Resort as a stunning place. I'm glad your reading was successful and led to you using audio equipment as part of your writing process. Things seem different when said aloud.
My first big reading was scary to me, but I made it through my short story - to be met with dead silence from the audience of maybe 60 people. I wanted to die. Then they burst into cheers. Very dramatic. I went to the bar there as soon as possible. Whew!
Just read your Part Two of the Doge story, and wonder how I can read Part One. This part seemed a little rushed to me, but you have a lot on your plate! Thanks for writing to me here. Do you ever read work on the general ello site? Do you even have time to read? Lol...
Later, LJ
Hey LJ, so I hyperlinked the first part near the top but I probably should have made that more clear. Hopefully this will link to it: https://storyletter.substack.com/p/an-enlightened-dream
As for the classroom thing, I’m prior military and during my time in service we would have virtual workshops or annual training courses that we would do in a “classroom” environment. I’m not retired, I served for 10 years and then decided to change my direction a little bit.
I love Utah for the most part. It’s got it’s flaws, but I do love looking at the mountains.
The audio thing has definitely been an eye-opening endeavor. Your story about reading to a group of 60 people is terrifying and also very inspirational. I’m glad it ended in approval.
I’ve never been on Ello. What is it? I do try to read every day. I have some time set aside for reading here on Substack, some time for physical books, and some time for audiobooks (commute, dog walking). I’ve found that reading keeps me engaged with words and motivates me to write more.
Thanks for the link, Winston. I enjoyed Part One about Doge more than Part Two; it felt a bit more loved or something. Can't put my finger on it. The line "Much wow" will probably be repeated by me several times - good one! I'll also read Part Two again and see if it settles better.
Ello is an art site I was led to by a poet over a year ago. Since then, I've posted several stories there, some photos I took, and even some memes. I was led to Substack from there, following a lit mag link left by 'tvansantana' about 2 weeks or so ago. I'm glad I hit the link and supplied an email address, though I've glimpsed so much it's almost overwhelming. Lots going on here. I use Ello as 'xlntljk' - a silly username that's a partial holdover from two more art sites I use, one used for the past 13 years.
Yes, public readings are always a challenge, and always fun. I also think reading in general (along with some kind of sharing) is important for writers to do. It ranks close to always observing life in general, and taking part when desired and possible.
Experiences of many kinds add a lot to a writer's repertoire. Writing from different POVs, like that of a "doge" and an ape in Death Valley, shows how pleasantly fruitful that can be, and also how good a challenge writing sometimes is.
What is your present trajectory? Mine is that of a retired old lady, lol. Lots of memories and a few current projects.... (I remain curious [and slow] about subscriptions around here, too.)
I'm a little late here but I wanted to first say thank you to all the commenters, and of course to you Winston for opening up a little corner of the internet for writers. I'm very grateful. There is a lot of good advice here. I don't have any of my own to share, but I do have some from Stephen King's "On Writing." He says that his first draft is always written with the door closed, meaning he doesn't show anyone his work while it's in process for the first go round. I may be adding my own spin on it, but I think it's because the idea is fragile. We're likely to give in to the whims of any critique, change the whole story up, and muck up the idea that brought us to the page to begin with. When he writes his second draft, he writes with the door open. He has a few trusted readers, namely his wife, and he takes her advice to heart. I think we have to find that person or those people who care about us enough to be honest, but believe in what we're doing. Not just any person.
Along those lines, I also think that we should expect to try and fail hundreds if not thousands of times. There are so few examples of writers who hit it out of the park on the first novel, essay, poem. I think if we're putting work out and getting feedback, even if it's negative, we have won the battle. I started submitting short stories to science fiction/speculative fiction magazines this year. I've only gotten rejections, and with each one I told myself, "You're doing it. You're a writer." Because that is the path that every hero writer you read has gone down before you. I'm so proud of everyone here for doing it at all.
Hey Shaina, thank you for joining in on the discussion. I’m so glad you’re here!
I like the concept that you brought up about nurturing an idea behind closed doors in the beginning. The one pet peeve I have is when I tell someone my idea and they say, “Oh, that sounds like _____”. It wouldn’t bother me if it was in a way that was supportive, but it comes off as “oh, that’s already been done before, therefore it’s not that original.” I’m not sure if I’m reading into it too much, but I feel like it’s one of those things where you have to just end up writing the story so that you can explore the ideas, themes and settings to make it your own. Then if someone criticizes it for being derivative or a clone, maybe it is or maybe it isn’t, but at least now you have an idea of what to fix.
You’re so right about the positives of failing repeatedly. I honestly don’t even try to view it as “failure” anymore. It’s just the next step in the process, the next iteration, the next growth stage. I wonder if the failure mindset is a byproduct of an educational system that instilled the idea that if we failed a test or exam then that was it, you got your grade and you moved on. I don’t feel like that is very conducive to actual learning. I’ve had to unlearn the way I learned in my youth to now try to plan and work iteratively and enjoy the whole process rather than the “I passed” instant gratification that was ingrained in me early on. I may be way off the mark here as I’m just thinking out loud at this point. Let me know if I am! Haha
Keep submitting your stories!! You’ll find a home eventually. You’ve already made the right choice of having your own Substack. Like you said, every writer has gone down a similar path at some point in their lives. It’s the journey not the destination!
I would LOVE feedback. In fact, I would embrace it. I'm always asking for people to leave a comment. That way, I know I'm not just writing to the crickets in the night. In fact, today's the one day in which I received comments, and that was for a comment I left on someone else's page. Go figger. In the meantime, I can't get them to leave a comment on my own stuff. It makes you wonder if it's because it's that bad, or they just can't be bothered. But when it comes to beginning a new project, well, there's no one I can turn to for advice. I tend to write stories that are long, and of interest to me. I mean, who else would be interested in the Mau Mau uprising of the 50s? I try to change things up so that it's interesting to me. I'm of the opinion that if I write something for me, maybe someone else will like it. I always listen to whatever anyone has to say about the stories I write. As to whether or not I take that advice and implement it, well, that depends on what advice they give me. Is it story, plot, or structure? You don't have to take the advice, but you owe it to yourself to at least listen to it. In the meantime, I wait...
Hey Ben, nice to meet you! Thank you for taking the time to comment. I feel your pain. Sometimes it’s very difficult to know if you’re doing something worthwhile if no one even acknowledges your work. This is one of the biggest turn offs for me with social media. I lose track of what I find valuable on there because everything is gauged and shared based on likes and whatever other hidden algorithms are at play. This has been the biggest driver for my love of Substack so far. I know that the work that I put out there is going straight to the people that want to read it most. Getting those people to subscribe in the first place is definitely an uphill climb.
I’m very interested in what you like to write? I noticed you have a Substack as well. I’m going to subscribe and check out some of your work. I’m all about supporting other writers, and I know how difficult it can be to get that support sometimes. The week after next I’ll be hosting a Meet and Greet for the community. I would love to have you drop in on that thread to pitch your Substack and meet some of the other writers.
Thanks for the greeting, Winston. I agree with everything you say about social media. I mean, I'm old by most peoples' reconning of age, I'd guess. Because I'm old, I like to tell myself I'm not as addicted to social media the same way my children seem to be--(they're in their 30s)--but all this marketing and no results? It does make one think they've become addicted just marketing themselves. I'm trying to look at it as a job. I'm not retired yet, but I'm off work at the moment. (See my piece: It was an Accident, Steve.) I tend to write long stories that end in heartache, as in: a lesson learned. "THE AFRICAN SONGBOOK: A Tragedy In 5 Acts" is a tragic (hence the title) love story, set during the Mau Mau troubles in Kenya, during the 1950's. I subtitled it "in 5 Acts" because I modelled the structure on a Shakespearean play. I don't know if it worked, but it worked for me. A few people questioned me on some things, and I simply replied, "Because that's the way I wanted it." Truth is, it would've fucked up the structure of the story. But they don't know that for the simple reason that they don't look at things like story and structure. I don't think anybody can give you advice on that. I read a book by James Dickie, (DELIVERANCE), only his 2nd novel in 20 years. It was the structure of the thing that drew me to it, as well as the story. I'm taking the plunge and doing video readings. It's ballsy, but then you have to tell yourself not to let the "trolls" get to you--oh but wait, we don't have that sort of negativity here on SUBSTACK, do we? As for your invite, I will do my best to drop by. I'm home most days. But I put it on my desk calendar. My wife's going in for day surgery next week and needs that week for recovery they're telling her. So I'm not going anywhere.
It is basically a second job. You’re approaching it correctly, for sure.
The African Songbook sounds really good! I’ll have to check it out.
Story structure is really important and hard to conceptualize for some people that aren’t familiar with a lot of the craft of writing. It reminds me of a period where I would submit the first chapter to a novel and get critiques like, “But I don’t understand what it’s about?” Which on the one hand, maybe that is legit constructive feedback, but on the other hand that’s the point of the whole book and not just the first chapter. So I stopped submitting chapters for critique because it didn’t make sense to me anymore.
I really hope Substack remains a positive community for us. I haven’t encountered any trolls as of yet, but there are features for handling it in a classy way. Also, why would someone subscribe and comment only to be rude? Lol (I guess that’s what trolling is in a nutshell)
I wish you and your wife all the best during the surgery and week of recovery. Can’t wait to learn more about you and your work!
Great question! For me, when I'm working on a project, I try to figure out what I don't know or understand about it yet. If it's something I can teach myself, I learn it. If it's something currently over my head, I seek out experts (with the understanding that even "experts" don't always have the right answers). I always ask those "experts" to justify their advice before I decide whether to take it. If it makes sense to me, I'm more likely to try it. If it sounds wrong for the situation or feels off in some way, I will probably avoid it. If they refuse to explain their answers, it's a huge red flag. Anyone who plays the "because I said so" or "because that's just how it's done" game does not deserve your trust. So, hear everyone out, weigh all the advice, and let your instincts and values make the final call--not the name, reputation, or credentials of the one giving the advice.
I've had a lot of issues in the past--in writing and other endeavors--where I got questionable help from professionals and wound up worse off than if I had just gone it alone. At the time, I didn't have the confidence to trust my gut and my abilities--and I didn't have the nerve to tell people in perceived positions of authority where to stick their bad advice ;-) I wanted to believe in them because I didn't want to have to do the work on my own--it seemed too daunting. There's still a lot to learn. But now that I'm older and hopefully a little wiser, I have fewer of those issues and it seems less scary. As time goes on, it has become easier to stand up for my vision, even if it's not shared by others. It's always easier to let someone else take the blame for one's failures, but I'd rather be wrong on my terms than on someone else's. And there is a good chance my terms are the right ones after all--for me, at least.
Very well put, Jacquie. I suppose there are people who have paved the way in almost every industry. There’s no need to recreate the wheel in terms of figuring out how to do something (especially in the age of YouTube). It then falls on personal goals and what gives us satisfaction at the end of the day. Like, as an example, no one says that someone who writes a book has to show it to anyone. Maybe someone just wants to write a book for the sake of reflecting on their thoughts at a later date. But I’d say for a majority of writers, we do want to show our work to someone, and those two paths would involve radically different choices. So it’s like you said, hear out the so-called “experts” but then filter their advice through what it is you’re trying to accomplish.
I’m happy to hear that you’ve gained confidence in your own abilities. It takes a lot of courage for someone to put out a story or essay with the understanding that they’ve opened themselves up to criticism. I wonder if a lot of writers realize that or not? Most of the friends I’ve talked to about writing say they are afraid of getting criticized. This is important to the advice question, because I think at some level we have to be willing to open up and take the negative aspects along with the good. The first step is being confident enough to know that someone’s criticism isn’t a poor reflection on you as a person, but an opportunity to become better. It’s a divorce of the Ego and the Self. I’ve gotten a lot better at this lately, but it’s always a work in progress.
Thanks for comment, Jacquie!
I’ve had a lot of advice in my time, some I took but most of my endeavors were by trial and error. It’s good to listen to many so that you are well informed and curiosities are fulfilled. Successful people have great ideas but have probably failed along the way. My advice to you would be to gather all the info you can about the project or endeavor, let it soak in awhile, then go with your gut, it’s usually right. Don’t let fear determine the decision but know that fear makes you cautious. I would love to write but I wouldn’t even know where to begin, any advice?
Thanks, Sandra. That is good advice. Weighing the pros and cons of a decision by letting it ruminate in the mind is a great first step to choosing the right path. I think what I’ve learned over the past year has been to just start doing the thing you want to do and you’ll learn as you go. There are benefits to reading and listening to what other people have to say, but doing it is on another level of growth. So you’re totally right in regards to trial and error, or iterative development as I like to think of it. There’s no failing really, it’s all a part of the improvement process.
As for writing, or more specifically where to begin with writing if you don’t know what to write, I’d say get a notebook or open a blank document on your computer and start with the words, phrases, or ideas that speak to you. This helps me with word association and externalizing my thoughts. This might give you some insight into what exactly it is that you’d want to write about.
Do you know what you’d like to write about? Sometimes reading in the genre or genres you’d like to write will help build a foundation but you have to take care not to reduce your work to being just a derivative of what you’re reading, unless that’s the goal. Hopefully that helps on some level.
Thanks, that’s great advice. I will start a journal of thoughts and go for it.. I’m excited just thinking about it.
I follow up with the person who requested the quote, or processed the transaction. It’s usually the outside sales person or the purchasing agent with a dealer. You get feedback on your product from the main person doing the selling and purchasing of your products. Just reach out to them and ask, how did we look, who’s my competition, what can I do to earn your business.
Awesome 😎 this is a specialized but applicable formula to requesting feedback. I like it. Very direct approach that would likely get the results you’re looking for.
Thank you! I appreciate your perspective. I’ll see how I can implement this method moving forward.