I recently read a compelling essay regarding magical realism. Daniel—the author of the piece—described the work of a Bohemian writer named Josef Popper-Lynkeus, and went on to explain that he was categorized as a “fabulist”, someone who writes short fables. I wasn’t bothered by this reductionist categorization, but it definitely sparked a line of inquisitive thought around being categorized as a specific type of writer.
The need to categorize fiction, and its respective writers, is great. A reader wants to know which section to visit in a bookstore. It allows an author to effectively market their story. It’s how we have thoughtful conversations about entertainment. Stephen King is known for Horror, yet he wrote a novella which was later adapted for the screen called “The Shawshank Redemption”, one of the highest rated movies of all time and not considered to be within the Horror genre.
I guess what I’m leading into is, does genre matter to you when you sit down to write a story? What influence does genre have over the formulation of your tale? Can genre lead to derivative storytelling, or is that a part of its appeal? What sort of tropes form out of writing to fit a certain genre?
For readers, when picking up a book in a specific genre, are you seeking something familiar yet original? Do you avoid certain genres based on generalized feelings toward them? Overall, how important is genre when you look for your next book?
Lots of questions this week, but it’s a broad topic. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts! ~ WM
I’d say overall genre is helpful as a general guideline in terms of what to more or less expect to some degree. (Could I have made a more vague statement, haha?!) But in the end I think good writing is good writing and a solid story is just that regardless. Personally, I tend to shy away from genre writing for the most part because I think limitations only harm art. That’s why I tend to read (and write) so-called ‘literary’ fiction. It tends to be more open, more reflective of real life (in my opinion), and more character-driven, which I find satisfying. Some genre books are fantastic but others I find feel sort of forced, or like the meat of the story is all plot and the characters and setting and everything else just sort of hangs on that forced plot. I look for good, honest, open writing that feels true.
Hey Michael, you’ve made some great points. It is totally a way to know what to expect. Take some of the big categories for example, Science Fiction or Fantasy or Romance, these encompass huge swathes of stories, yet they each set an immediate expectation (frame of reference) for the reader when they walk down the isle.
I fell into a trap early in my writing career because all I had read was the genres that I was attempting to write in. This hurt me a ton and I couldn’t see it. I was so wrapped up in the derivative nature of what I was doing, regurgitating the same concepts but in my own words. It’s basically fan-fiction at that point, even if it’s in your own unique world. It wasn’t until recently when I read a book called “The Art of Fiction” where the first chapter states, “there are no rules” that I understood it wasn’t about following the guidelines but telling the story you want to tell.
I admire the fact that you’re pursuing a more literary journey that isn’t defined by genre. I’m attempting to do the same by allowing myself to write poetry and in varying styles. Honestly, I’d say within the past 2 years, I’ve grown more as a writer simply by writing outside of genre fiction. It’s pretty incredible and, dare I say, more fun that way!
Hey Michael! I find this really fascinating, as a writer of science fiction and fantasy, because I tend to think the same as you, but reversed. :)
For example - I don't see genre writing as imposing limitations. Science fiction can do everything literary fiction might want to do, but it can also expand into speculative territory or futuristic settings. I see that as additive, rather than reductive. The best science fiction is inherently reflective of real life, even if it does so through allegory and metaphor - but that distance or altered context can say even more about the present.
Of course, I fully get what you're saying. In reality, a lot of genre fiction IS very limited and formulaic. But that's just the difference between good and bad literature, whether it happens to be sci-fi or something else. A science fiction book that hangs on plot and has paper thin characters isn't a bad science fiction book, it's just a bad book.
Literary fiction perhaps has to work harder in the first place because it doesn't have some of the reliable aspects of genre fiction with which to disguise bad writing. So in that regard literary fiction is perhaps more reliable, because it can't get away with it. But a good sci-fi book is as good as a litfic book.
Oh, and I do disagree with the notion that 'limitations only harm art'. Some of the best art comes about precisely because of limitations, which forces different types of creativity and solutions.
Hey Simon! I hear what you're saying. Well-stated my friend. I agree about a bad book being a bad book, regardless of genre (or lack therein). And yes, I agree that "limitations" in the form of genre can sometimes ironically increase your scope of content, setting, etc. That said: I would argue that it's always the most transgressive authors who push past genre and write whatever it is they seem to harbor deep down inside and simply can't resist. Genre is very different, too, depending on type of book. Sci-fi is more open than, say, romance or cop-thrillers. For me I don't like the predictable plot which seems to so often engender much genre writing. Then again: I probably loathe even more the hyper MFA-like "program fiction" (as Elif Batuman calls is), pretentious "literary fiction" when it goes off the rails and tries way too hard to "sound smart." Whether within a genre or doing lit-fic, as you sort of said: Do it well. Do it authentically. Be honest. And don't bullshit readers. If you do that: In my eyes every time you win.
That's a mostly fair point about the latitude of different genres. That said, having worked for several years at a crime writing festival in the UK I got to see just how varied the genre can be. As someone who doesn't read crime fiction generally, I was surprised and impressed. There was a lot of the more generic, long-running Detective Detects Stuff books, sure, but it was around the fringes that interesting stuff was happening. Perhaps that's the same in any genre.
And as you say, 'literary fiction' has its own genre problems and limitations, even while it strains against being defined as such.
IMO, genre is more helpful for the reader than the writer. We've all probably read stories that seem to promise one thing but deliver another. Sometimes it can be a pleasant surprise, but it's often a disappointment.
I consider myself to mostly be a genre writer, for what it's worth, but my stories also have a pretty strong literary influence. Of course, I'm also a terrible snob because I've been generally unimpressed by the genre fiction of the past six or seven years. It seems increasingly childish and agenda-driven. The irony is that this stuff is generally written by and for Millennial women like me.
Hey Leigh, thanks for commenting. I agree that genre is probably more helpful for the reader when it comes to figuring out what to read next, rather than the writer thinking about what to write next.
I think what’s neat about our generation is that we are witnessing the democratization of publishing and artful expression in a way that past decades never had access to. I would also say that due to the huge amounts of stories becoming available, we’re seeing genres bleed into one another and become their own thing. Some stories that were niches before have now defined their own entire genres, ie “portal fantasy” and “litRPG”.
I’m convinced the NYT bestseller list is rigged and doesn’t reflect what people are actually reading. Sites like Wattpad, Substack, and Royal Road probably get way more readers than the NYT list. It’s upsetting that legacy systems have gatekept the industry for this long, but I feel a shift in the tide coming. Maybe it’s already shifted and we’re riding the wave.
That's how I feel about AI art and content. It's increasingly easier to access, but there will still be a few people that really take off with it despite it being available for everyone to use. I guess that's the way of the world.
I don't think Substack is a trendy thing. I'm viewing it like the YouTube of the publishing industry. There will likely be consistent waves of new writers that splash into the arena and change it up. But I hear you on finishing things quickly, it's a breakneck pace that I was not prepared for.
When I was stranded out in the Houston Bayport shipping channel on a dredge for three months, a friend gave me a book to read in an effort to help the time pass by. It was a Western novel from Louis L’Amour. I really never took the time to read much as a kid growing up in Florida in the 70’s, we spent our time outside playing baseball, sand lot football, fishing and boating. My point is, once I started reading that book I couldn’t set it down. Now since then I still don’t really take the time to read much, but its funny if asked what genre would I enjoy reading I would have to say a good Western short novel would definitely peak my interests. I always enjoyed the old western shows as well, like The Lone Ranger, Riffleman, Maverick, and Gunsmoke were some of my favorites. Now that my son is writing, it would be interesting to see if someone out there could come up with new Fic-Western genre. Just saying, that may peak my interests to start reading again.
I've never read a western or Louis L'Amour book. However, I've consumed a lot of entertainment over the years that has been inspired by the genre. Of course, I've seen Western films, but to know how a genre is written, I'd probably need to pick up a few books.
I wrote a Western Horror story for an anthology a few months ago, however, I'm waiting to hear back on if it has been accepted or not. If not, then I will publish here on The Storyletter for free.
As for a new Western genre...that is a really interesting topic. There are so many blends out there that fuse Western into them and vice versa. It makes me think of how there are now so many fusions of foods out there, and for the better in my opinion. I love tasting new foods! So bring on the new fusion Westerns!
I recently added a bunch of Louis L'Amour books to my kindle! They seem like great stories and I thought maybe they might be relatable to the kinds of characters I write about ;-) I'll have to make a point of reading some of them sooner.
There have been some cool new "western" themed tv shows like Longmire and Yellowstone. I bet there is an audience out there for new westerns and maybe even some writers who fly under the radar but who are still putting out great stories. Hope you find something interesting!
I totally agree, I enjoy Yellow Stone very much and can’t wait until season five begins. I also enjoyed watching that western drama show 1883 that came out in December 2021.
I can't wait either! I caught the beginning of 1883 but I don't have the channel the rest of the episodes are on. I have to find out where I can watch the rest... Love all that stuff :-)
So many great questions here, and they could each be their own post... Limiting it to my perspective as a writer and reader these days primarily of historical fiction, I wouldn't say that genre or its tropes have much effect on me as I write, though HF has fewer expectations or conventions associated with it than, say, YA, sci-fi, or romance. The one standard by which most HF operates, however, is authenticity. If not necessarily adhering to encyclopedic facts, it strives to convey a credible sense of past people, places, and events.
However, as a reader of HF, I definitely have some expectations and pet-peeves associated with the genre, so maybe these unconsciously influence my writing? One of the things that drives me nuts is when I'm shopping for a historical book and it ends up being fantasy. I have nothing against fantasy, and enjoy quite a bit of it, but when I want real HF, I don't want the plot to hinge on magic, ghosts, gods, time travel, or whatever. As you say, the categories are mostly there to help readers, and these books probably belong in a sub-genre like historical fantasy, so those looking for an authentic story of the past don't get an unwelcome surprise.
When I was submitting my novel, an editor suggested I use books like "Song of Achilles", "The Silence of the Girls," and "The Lost Queen" as my comparative titles. But these are ALL fantasy! There are gods, centaurs, and magic in them which are elements absent in my naturalistic story. How can they be comparable? Yet, all of these books are billed as straight up historical fiction and appear on HF lists. It feels like a betrayal, either by the authors or the publishers who market the books. Though, in fairness, readers would be hard-pressed to find a recent story set in the ancient world that did not have a supernatural element in it...
Hey Jacquie, thank you for commenting. I always enjoy your perspective. I’d say I have almost no expectations when reading HF, but I can totally see how it might get mischaracterized as fantasy. From a publishers perspective, I guess you want it to sell and make money, but as a reader I don’t want false advertising. What an odd predicament!
Niches are really popular these days and it’s easier than ever to find them, or so I imagine. Like if you go to royalroad.com, you’ll find huge amounts of readers for “portal fantasy” and “litRPG”, mainly because it’s just not categorized on mainstream markets for the most part, yet people really want to read it. So I guess the answer to this may be more categories, not less? Allow people to filter down to the greatest niche possible? There’s a thread there but I’m not sure what happens if we pull it haha.
It kind of pisses me off that historical high fantasy is getting mixed in with historical fiction. I know that Mary Robinette Kowal writes historical fiction with heavy amounts of magic in them. I haven’t really read a whole lot of it, but it seems fun because you can have a familiar setting and time period where the reader can immediately understand most of the framing references and worldbuilding, but then add in new elements. But it’s clearly a different genre entirely to historical fiction. I like your label of Historical Fantasy. That sums it up nicely.
Did you ever read Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett? I haven’t read it yet but it’s sitting on my desk staring at me every day until the moment comes when I can pick it up haha. I heard it’s a pretty great HF novel set in medieval times that doesn’t have magic as far as I know.
Ha! It's funny because i just checked out royalroad.com and everything in the "historical" category was also a fantasy hybrid! I can't wrap my head around it. What's going on there!? Why has fantasy fused with all the genres? People obviously want to read it, but why specifically? I'm obsessed with this now haha ;-)
Anyway, you may be right that we'll end up with more (sub)genres, not fewer, the way we've done with music. I can't keep up with all the various categories in music these days, but everyone seems to have their particular niche, and that's cool, I guess. I remember talking to a guy once and the conversation turned to music. He said he only listened to "shoegaze" and I thought it was like some indie band I'd never heard of, but it was a very specific microgenre. That specificity stuck in my head all this time. Feels like that's happening in literature, too--online, at least. Maybe it's happening in everything--people's preferences might just be narrowing thanks to the internet and algorithms....
But, yeah, I do wonder what happens when people get stuck inside the bubble of their preferred niche and never try anything beyond it? Never accidentally discover a book outside it that they connect with or that surprises them in some way... There is something to be said for leaving a little room to maneuver inside the genres so writers can experiment and readers have to explore a little.
I've never read Pillars of the Earth (one day...) but I think I saw the series a while ago. I don't believe there is magic in it, though if I recall there is a "witch." I've heard it's well-written and very interesting, but the descriptions of cathedral building can be, um, painstaking. Upon finishing the book, you become a certified medieval architect, haha :-D
That’s so crazy that historical fantasy is so prevalent. Don’t fight it, Jacquie. Let it take you and rename you book “Of Wind and Wolves and Magic”. Kidding! Don’t do that. It’s perfect the way it is.
Shoegaze? What the... I must look this up. (Looked it up) Okay. I know what that sound is. It’s not terrible but didn’t grow up on it so I don’t have a connection to it. In regards to music sub-genres, that’s a perfect comparison to what book genres are falling into. Very niche, but popular indie styles.
I was once stuck in a bubble of fantasy. I’ve only now begun to read HF, classic sci-fi, horror, and magical realism. It’s improved my writing tenfold probably.
So are we going to build our own cathedral soon by reading Pillars of the Earth?
I'm not gonna fight it anymore! haha. But seriously, since I've been reading here, I've been exposed to so many different styles and genres of writing, I've definitely branched out more and even written a little speculative fiction thanks to you, so I guess it's got its hooks in me too ;-) I'd say it's probably improved my writing too...
I'm always up for some cathedral building! There is a fun series (I think on Amazon Prime) done by some archaeologists and a historian where they recreate the life of Victorian and Edwardian farmers for a year each. They do one at a (I think) Tudor era monastery and they also help build a castle in France. It's fascinating. I think the names are simple like "Victorian Farm" and whatnot if you want to look them up.
"Pillars of the Earth". I read it years ago. It was amazing. Pure Historical Fiction, in fact, just what the doctor ordered. There's still lots of it out there. My bookcases have plenty. But I also like Historical Fantasy, like Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Avalon." Tessa Gratton wrote two books based on Shakespeare. "The Queens of Innis Lear" and "Hotspur." Amazing language, simply beautiful reading. Oh, and Tom Willocks, "The Religion," during the Crusades and the siege of Malta.
But right now I'm putting up a story--okay, it's a book, but I'm calling it an Historical Thriller, because it takes place in 1923 London. I don't even know if there is a sub-genre called Historical Thriller...but I guess there is now!
Heck yes! Historical thriller sounds awesome. What is it about writing historical fiction that appeals to Ben? Is it that the setting is sort of already established? I’m not sure why I force myself to build fantasy worlds and torture myself with coming up with animal and plant names that have no bearing on the plot 😂
Side note: We should do a Pillars of the Earth book club reading. Discuss it over the next 5 years. Build our own cathedral.
I have a book I call my "apprenticeship." It takes place in Ancient Rome. I was writing it before we even had the PC, or the internet, on an electric typewriter. I had to do all my research in the library and order books from New York, Vancouver, and anywhere else I could find them. I'd bring them into work and copy them on the copying machine. It got to be too big. 285,000 words. Three different versions, ranging from 1200-1500 pages. Ridiculously large. And then I started my family and had to put things on hold. When I started writing again, I wanted to write short stories. I realized that I could write stories that took place in the near past. Both World Wars, the Civil Rights era, and things just moved along from there. I was writing about a lot of things I actually remembered. And discovering Wikipedia was a Godsend. It didn't matter if it was right or not, I was writing fiction! It only takes one tiny idea to get me going. Did you know, after WW1, they had men who wore carved ivory masks because their faces were blown apart?
What a fascinating story about the creation of your book, and your journey through research and writing it. Wikipedia has definitely changed everything when it comes to building a quick knowledgebase on a particular subject. Thank you for sharing!
The only reason I know about the ivory mask thing was that show The Boardwalk Empire, where one of the characters had an ivory mask and was a WW1 veteran. I don't know anything else about it.
You aren't wrong. Most of my own stuff is historical horror, but I agree that it's becoming more difficult to find realistic historical fiction, particularly of the ancient past.
And I have to say that I don't look for any particular genre to write in. I also like literary fiction, and tend to write it. I like short stories. I like reading them as much as I do writing them. But I write to entertain myself first. I have a story with a dragon because my son told me I should write a dragon story. Well, there's always more to it than that, isn't there? You can't just write a simple dragon story. I guess that you'd have to label that as a fantasy, but then, it was an obvious King Arthur setting, so what does that make it? And it's long, because I like long stories. I have another story that takes place in Kenya during the Mau Mau uprising of the 50s. A tragic love story. Is it a tragedy, or a love story? I like to think of it an an experiment because I structured it on a Shakespearean motif, with 5 acts in place of the chapters. I read JACK REACHER novels because they're quick, easy reads. I like John Grisham as well, but his stories aren't always about lawyers A PAINTED HOUSE is one of the best things he's written. I confess, I don't read Romance novels. But it's the writing that counts for me. That's what I like Alice Munro and Mavis Gallant, Richard Ford and, well, the list is endless, isn't it? Can I put my link up for people to take a look at? https://benwoestenburg.substack.com
Hey Ben, thanks for taking the time to comment. It is strange how one element such as a dragon can immediately begin to shape the genre. It’s almost like you have to do everything in your power to craft it otherwise (in the case when you’re not writing a fantasy novel, that is). A really cool movie I watched growing up was called Reign of Fire, featuring Christian Bale and Matthew McConaughey where Earth had been turned post-apocalyptic by a dragon comes to mind as one of the few instances where “dragon” isn’t associated with traditional “fantasy”.
I haven’t read the Jack Reacher books, but I bet they are good. I was able to listen to The Terminal List by Jack Carr earlier this year before the show came out on Prime Video. I like reading in different genres than I write typically because there’s lessons to be learned from each one in terms of style, pacing, and voice. I’m trying to go back and read the classics this year to get a feel for what made them great. Amazing how some novels can be so timeless.
Your story sounds very interesting. Sorry I haven’t had a chance to check it out yet as I’ve been swamped lately. I’m pretty ignorant to that time period, so maybe it would be good to dive in and learn more about the Mau Mau uprising (my auto correct changed it to Mad Max! Wow haha).
Yeah, autocorrect is 'too young' to know who the Mau Mau were. Mine has seen the word so many times it doesn't change it anymore, but it still underlines it. I started putting things up on Reddit, trying to figure it out, and I've got a thousand reads for one chapter. So I put up the start of another story I was working on and have 1500 in less the 24 hours. Think I can get them over here to sign up? Nope.
Whoa! That’s pretty awesome. I haven’t figured Reddit out yet. I need to though. If you do, let me know! I’m basically done trying to get subscribers at this point, it doesn’t seem to resonate on most social media platforms. Heck, people I know in person still haven’t done it! Lol
As an author, I definitely don't want to be pigeonholed into a specific genre. Many of my ideas fall into the science fiction or horror genres, but I have quite a few other stories at various stages of development that fall well outside those genres. My focus has always been centered on telling a compelling story driven by the characters populating that story. Focusing on the characters and telling their story helps avoid lazy cliches and tropes and truly engages a reader with a story they won't want to put down. You will have realistic actions, reactions, and interactions from your characters related to the world around them.
I really like that approach. It makes the story feel way more organic and relatable. Sometimes my characters surprise me and push the scene in new directions that I hadn’t planned for and that’s something special because it becomes unpredictable and gripping. When I feel entertained, that’s when I know the audience should feel entertained, or at least its a measure that at least there’s some level of excitement happening, otherwise if I’m bored writing it, then I’m not sure who’s going to like reading it. Anyway, great comment and perspective, John! Thanks for commenting.
I’d say overall genre is helpful as a general guideline in terms of what to more or less expect to some degree. (Could I have made a more vague statement, haha?!) But in the end I think good writing is good writing and a solid story is just that regardless. Personally, I tend to shy away from genre writing for the most part because I think limitations only harm art. That’s why I tend to read (and write) so-called ‘literary’ fiction. It tends to be more open, more reflective of real life (in my opinion), and more character-driven, which I find satisfying. Some genre books are fantastic but others I find feel sort of forced, or like the meat of the story is all plot and the characters and setting and everything else just sort of hangs on that forced plot. I look for good, honest, open writing that feels true.
Hey Michael, you’ve made some great points. It is totally a way to know what to expect. Take some of the big categories for example, Science Fiction or Fantasy or Romance, these encompass huge swathes of stories, yet they each set an immediate expectation (frame of reference) for the reader when they walk down the isle.
I fell into a trap early in my writing career because all I had read was the genres that I was attempting to write in. This hurt me a ton and I couldn’t see it. I was so wrapped up in the derivative nature of what I was doing, regurgitating the same concepts but in my own words. It’s basically fan-fiction at that point, even if it’s in your own unique world. It wasn’t until recently when I read a book called “The Art of Fiction” where the first chapter states, “there are no rules” that I understood it wasn’t about following the guidelines but telling the story you want to tell.
I admire the fact that you’re pursuing a more literary journey that isn’t defined by genre. I’m attempting to do the same by allowing myself to write poetry and in varying styles. Honestly, I’d say within the past 2 years, I’ve grown more as a writer simply by writing outside of genre fiction. It’s pretty incredible and, dare I say, more fun that way!
Hey Michael! I find this really fascinating, as a writer of science fiction and fantasy, because I tend to think the same as you, but reversed. :)
For example - I don't see genre writing as imposing limitations. Science fiction can do everything literary fiction might want to do, but it can also expand into speculative territory or futuristic settings. I see that as additive, rather than reductive. The best science fiction is inherently reflective of real life, even if it does so through allegory and metaphor - but that distance or altered context can say even more about the present.
Of course, I fully get what you're saying. In reality, a lot of genre fiction IS very limited and formulaic. But that's just the difference between good and bad literature, whether it happens to be sci-fi or something else. A science fiction book that hangs on plot and has paper thin characters isn't a bad science fiction book, it's just a bad book.
Literary fiction perhaps has to work harder in the first place because it doesn't have some of the reliable aspects of genre fiction with which to disguise bad writing. So in that regard literary fiction is perhaps more reliable, because it can't get away with it. But a good sci-fi book is as good as a litfic book.
Oh, and I do disagree with the notion that 'limitations only harm art'. Some of the best art comes about precisely because of limitations, which forces different types of creativity and solutions.
Fascinating topic, though. Thanks!
Hey Simon! I hear what you're saying. Well-stated my friend. I agree about a bad book being a bad book, regardless of genre (or lack therein). And yes, I agree that "limitations" in the form of genre can sometimes ironically increase your scope of content, setting, etc. That said: I would argue that it's always the most transgressive authors who push past genre and write whatever it is they seem to harbor deep down inside and simply can't resist. Genre is very different, too, depending on type of book. Sci-fi is more open than, say, romance or cop-thrillers. For me I don't like the predictable plot which seems to so often engender much genre writing. Then again: I probably loathe even more the hyper MFA-like "program fiction" (as Elif Batuman calls is), pretentious "literary fiction" when it goes off the rails and tries way too hard to "sound smart." Whether within a genre or doing lit-fic, as you sort of said: Do it well. Do it authentically. Be honest. And don't bullshit readers. If you do that: In my eyes every time you win.
Michael
That's a mostly fair point about the latitude of different genres. That said, having worked for several years at a crime writing festival in the UK I got to see just how varied the genre can be. As someone who doesn't read crime fiction generally, I was surprised and impressed. There was a lot of the more generic, long-running Detective Detects Stuff books, sure, but it was around the fringes that interesting stuff was happening. Perhaps that's the same in any genre.
And as you say, 'literary fiction' has its own genre problems and limitations, even while it strains against being defined as such.
IMO, genre is more helpful for the reader than the writer. We've all probably read stories that seem to promise one thing but deliver another. Sometimes it can be a pleasant surprise, but it's often a disappointment.
I consider myself to mostly be a genre writer, for what it's worth, but my stories also have a pretty strong literary influence. Of course, I'm also a terrible snob because I've been generally unimpressed by the genre fiction of the past six or seven years. It seems increasingly childish and agenda-driven. The irony is that this stuff is generally written by and for Millennial women like me.
Hey Leigh, thanks for commenting. I agree that genre is probably more helpful for the reader when it comes to figuring out what to read next, rather than the writer thinking about what to write next.
I think what’s neat about our generation is that we are witnessing the democratization of publishing and artful expression in a way that past decades never had access to. I would also say that due to the huge amounts of stories becoming available, we’re seeing genres bleed into one another and become their own thing. Some stories that were niches before have now defined their own entire genres, ie “portal fantasy” and “litRPG”.
I’m convinced the NYT bestseller list is rigged and doesn’t reflect what people are actually reading. Sites like Wattpad, Substack, and Royal Road probably get way more readers than the NYT list. It’s upsetting that legacy systems have gatekept the industry for this long, but I feel a shift in the tide coming. Maybe it’s already shifted and we’re riding the wave.
I agree, although the downside of this trend of democratization is that it can be very hard to stand out. I guess everything has a downside, though.
Personally, I'm just hoping I can actually finish some stuff quickly enough to ride the Substack wave.
That's how I feel about AI art and content. It's increasingly easier to access, but there will still be a few people that really take off with it despite it being available for everyone to use. I guess that's the way of the world.
I don't think Substack is a trendy thing. I'm viewing it like the YouTube of the publishing industry. There will likely be consistent waves of new writers that splash into the arena and change it up. But I hear you on finishing things quickly, it's a breakneck pace that I was not prepared for.
Want to read a breath of fresh air re anti-Wokeness in writing? Check this out: https://www.hobartpulp.com/web_features/alex-perez-on-the-iowa-s-writers-workshop-baseball-and-growing-up-cuban-american-in-america
Wow! I read a section of it and that guy isn’t afraid to say how he really feels haha
Right?!? I was like, Preach it, brotha! 😅
I very much enjoyed this essay. At this point, I just want to write what I want, moral scolds be damned.
Yep. Exactly.
Agreed! Especially about agendas! Sad. But that’s why we’re here on SS right?!
When I was stranded out in the Houston Bayport shipping channel on a dredge for three months, a friend gave me a book to read in an effort to help the time pass by. It was a Western novel from Louis L’Amour. I really never took the time to read much as a kid growing up in Florida in the 70’s, we spent our time outside playing baseball, sand lot football, fishing and boating. My point is, once I started reading that book I couldn’t set it down. Now since then I still don’t really take the time to read much, but its funny if asked what genre would I enjoy reading I would have to say a good Western short novel would definitely peak my interests. I always enjoyed the old western shows as well, like The Lone Ranger, Riffleman, Maverick, and Gunsmoke were some of my favorites. Now that my son is writing, it would be interesting to see if someone out there could come up with new Fic-Western genre. Just saying, that may peak my interests to start reading again.
I've never read a western or Louis L'Amour book. However, I've consumed a lot of entertainment over the years that has been inspired by the genre. Of course, I've seen Western films, but to know how a genre is written, I'd probably need to pick up a few books.
I wrote a Western Horror story for an anthology a few months ago, however, I'm waiting to hear back on if it has been accepted or not. If not, then I will publish here on The Storyletter for free.
As for a new Western genre...that is a really interesting topic. There are so many blends out there that fuse Western into them and vice versa. It makes me think of how there are now so many fusions of foods out there, and for the better in my opinion. I love tasting new foods! So bring on the new fusion Westerns!
Yes, I hope you hear back with good news, that’s exciting. Looking forward to some some futuristic, sci-fi, fiction Western reading.
There’s a cartoon show called Cowboy Bebop that was really popular. Scifi space western
I recently added a bunch of Louis L'Amour books to my kindle! They seem like great stories and I thought maybe they might be relatable to the kinds of characters I write about ;-) I'll have to make a point of reading some of them sooner.
There have been some cool new "western" themed tv shows like Longmire and Yellowstone. I bet there is an audience out there for new westerns and maybe even some writers who fly under the radar but who are still putting out great stories. Hope you find something interesting!
I've only seen the first season of Yellowstone and I'm a fan. I'll eventually get around to watching the rest somehow.
Ooh you won’t be disappointed!
What are you watching it on?
I totally agree, I enjoy Yellow Stone very much and can’t wait until season five begins. I also enjoyed watching that western drama show 1883 that came out in December 2021.
I can't wait either! I caught the beginning of 1883 but I don't have the channel the rest of the episodes are on. I have to find out where I can watch the rest... Love all that stuff :-)
So many great questions here, and they could each be their own post... Limiting it to my perspective as a writer and reader these days primarily of historical fiction, I wouldn't say that genre or its tropes have much effect on me as I write, though HF has fewer expectations or conventions associated with it than, say, YA, sci-fi, or romance. The one standard by which most HF operates, however, is authenticity. If not necessarily adhering to encyclopedic facts, it strives to convey a credible sense of past people, places, and events.
However, as a reader of HF, I definitely have some expectations and pet-peeves associated with the genre, so maybe these unconsciously influence my writing? One of the things that drives me nuts is when I'm shopping for a historical book and it ends up being fantasy. I have nothing against fantasy, and enjoy quite a bit of it, but when I want real HF, I don't want the plot to hinge on magic, ghosts, gods, time travel, or whatever. As you say, the categories are mostly there to help readers, and these books probably belong in a sub-genre like historical fantasy, so those looking for an authentic story of the past don't get an unwelcome surprise.
When I was submitting my novel, an editor suggested I use books like "Song of Achilles", "The Silence of the Girls," and "The Lost Queen" as my comparative titles. But these are ALL fantasy! There are gods, centaurs, and magic in them which are elements absent in my naturalistic story. How can they be comparable? Yet, all of these books are billed as straight up historical fiction and appear on HF lists. It feels like a betrayal, either by the authors or the publishers who market the books. Though, in fairness, readers would be hard-pressed to find a recent story set in the ancient world that did not have a supernatural element in it...
Hey Jacquie, thank you for commenting. I always enjoy your perspective. I’d say I have almost no expectations when reading HF, but I can totally see how it might get mischaracterized as fantasy. From a publishers perspective, I guess you want it to sell and make money, but as a reader I don’t want false advertising. What an odd predicament!
Niches are really popular these days and it’s easier than ever to find them, or so I imagine. Like if you go to royalroad.com, you’ll find huge amounts of readers for “portal fantasy” and “litRPG”, mainly because it’s just not categorized on mainstream markets for the most part, yet people really want to read it. So I guess the answer to this may be more categories, not less? Allow people to filter down to the greatest niche possible? There’s a thread there but I’m not sure what happens if we pull it haha.
It kind of pisses me off that historical high fantasy is getting mixed in with historical fiction. I know that Mary Robinette Kowal writes historical fiction with heavy amounts of magic in them. I haven’t really read a whole lot of it, but it seems fun because you can have a familiar setting and time period where the reader can immediately understand most of the framing references and worldbuilding, but then add in new elements. But it’s clearly a different genre entirely to historical fiction. I like your label of Historical Fantasy. That sums it up nicely.
Did you ever read Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett? I haven’t read it yet but it’s sitting on my desk staring at me every day until the moment comes when I can pick it up haha. I heard it’s a pretty great HF novel set in medieval times that doesn’t have magic as far as I know.
Ha! It's funny because i just checked out royalroad.com and everything in the "historical" category was also a fantasy hybrid! I can't wrap my head around it. What's going on there!? Why has fantasy fused with all the genres? People obviously want to read it, but why specifically? I'm obsessed with this now haha ;-)
Anyway, you may be right that we'll end up with more (sub)genres, not fewer, the way we've done with music. I can't keep up with all the various categories in music these days, but everyone seems to have their particular niche, and that's cool, I guess. I remember talking to a guy once and the conversation turned to music. He said he only listened to "shoegaze" and I thought it was like some indie band I'd never heard of, but it was a very specific microgenre. That specificity stuck in my head all this time. Feels like that's happening in literature, too--online, at least. Maybe it's happening in everything--people's preferences might just be narrowing thanks to the internet and algorithms....
But, yeah, I do wonder what happens when people get stuck inside the bubble of their preferred niche and never try anything beyond it? Never accidentally discover a book outside it that they connect with or that surprises them in some way... There is something to be said for leaving a little room to maneuver inside the genres so writers can experiment and readers have to explore a little.
I've never read Pillars of the Earth (one day...) but I think I saw the series a while ago. I don't believe there is magic in it, though if I recall there is a "witch." I've heard it's well-written and very interesting, but the descriptions of cathedral building can be, um, painstaking. Upon finishing the book, you become a certified medieval architect, haha :-D
That’s so crazy that historical fantasy is so prevalent. Don’t fight it, Jacquie. Let it take you and rename you book “Of Wind and Wolves and Magic”. Kidding! Don’t do that. It’s perfect the way it is.
Shoegaze? What the... I must look this up. (Looked it up) Okay. I know what that sound is. It’s not terrible but didn’t grow up on it so I don’t have a connection to it. In regards to music sub-genres, that’s a perfect comparison to what book genres are falling into. Very niche, but popular indie styles.
I was once stuck in a bubble of fantasy. I’ve only now begun to read HF, classic sci-fi, horror, and magical realism. It’s improved my writing tenfold probably.
So are we going to build our own cathedral soon by reading Pillars of the Earth?
I'm not gonna fight it anymore! haha. But seriously, since I've been reading here, I've been exposed to so many different styles and genres of writing, I've definitely branched out more and even written a little speculative fiction thanks to you, so I guess it's got its hooks in me too ;-) I'd say it's probably improved my writing too...
I'm always up for some cathedral building! There is a fun series (I think on Amazon Prime) done by some archaeologists and a historian where they recreate the life of Victorian and Edwardian farmers for a year each. They do one at a (I think) Tudor era monastery and they also help build a castle in France. It's fascinating. I think the names are simple like "Victorian Farm" and whatnot if you want to look them up.
"Pillars of the Earth". I read it years ago. It was amazing. Pure Historical Fiction, in fact, just what the doctor ordered. There's still lots of it out there. My bookcases have plenty. But I also like Historical Fantasy, like Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Avalon." Tessa Gratton wrote two books based on Shakespeare. "The Queens of Innis Lear" and "Hotspur." Amazing language, simply beautiful reading. Oh, and Tom Willocks, "The Religion," during the Crusades and the siege of Malta.
But right now I'm putting up a story--okay, it's a book, but I'm calling it an Historical Thriller, because it takes place in 1923 London. I don't even know if there is a sub-genre called Historical Thriller...but I guess there is now!
Heck yes! Historical thriller sounds awesome. What is it about writing historical fiction that appeals to Ben? Is it that the setting is sort of already established? I’m not sure why I force myself to build fantasy worlds and torture myself with coming up with animal and plant names that have no bearing on the plot 😂
Side note: We should do a Pillars of the Earth book club reading. Discuss it over the next 5 years. Build our own cathedral.
Book club would be fun!
I have a book I call my "apprenticeship." It takes place in Ancient Rome. I was writing it before we even had the PC, or the internet, on an electric typewriter. I had to do all my research in the library and order books from New York, Vancouver, and anywhere else I could find them. I'd bring them into work and copy them on the copying machine. It got to be too big. 285,000 words. Three different versions, ranging from 1200-1500 pages. Ridiculously large. And then I started my family and had to put things on hold. When I started writing again, I wanted to write short stories. I realized that I could write stories that took place in the near past. Both World Wars, the Civil Rights era, and things just moved along from there. I was writing about a lot of things I actually remembered. And discovering Wikipedia was a Godsend. It didn't matter if it was right or not, I was writing fiction! It only takes one tiny idea to get me going. Did you know, after WW1, they had men who wore carved ivory masks because their faces were blown apart?
What a fascinating story about the creation of your book, and your journey through research and writing it. Wikipedia has definitely changed everything when it comes to building a quick knowledgebase on a particular subject. Thank you for sharing!
The only reason I know about the ivory mask thing was that show The Boardwalk Empire, where one of the characters had an ivory mask and was a WW1 veteran. I don't know anything else about it.
Those all sound great. I need to carve out some serious reading time!
A historical thriller sounds amazing.
You aren't wrong. Most of my own stuff is historical horror, but I agree that it's becoming more difficult to find realistic historical fiction, particularly of the ancient past.
And I have to say that I don't look for any particular genre to write in. I also like literary fiction, and tend to write it. I like short stories. I like reading them as much as I do writing them. But I write to entertain myself first. I have a story with a dragon because my son told me I should write a dragon story. Well, there's always more to it than that, isn't there? You can't just write a simple dragon story. I guess that you'd have to label that as a fantasy, but then, it was an obvious King Arthur setting, so what does that make it? And it's long, because I like long stories. I have another story that takes place in Kenya during the Mau Mau uprising of the 50s. A tragic love story. Is it a tragedy, or a love story? I like to think of it an an experiment because I structured it on a Shakespearean motif, with 5 acts in place of the chapters. I read JACK REACHER novels because they're quick, easy reads. I like John Grisham as well, but his stories aren't always about lawyers A PAINTED HOUSE is one of the best things he's written. I confess, I don't read Romance novels. But it's the writing that counts for me. That's what I like Alice Munro and Mavis Gallant, Richard Ford and, well, the list is endless, isn't it? Can I put my link up for people to take a look at? https://benwoestenburg.substack.com
Hey Ben, thanks for taking the time to comment. It is strange how one element such as a dragon can immediately begin to shape the genre. It’s almost like you have to do everything in your power to craft it otherwise (in the case when you’re not writing a fantasy novel, that is). A really cool movie I watched growing up was called Reign of Fire, featuring Christian Bale and Matthew McConaughey where Earth had been turned post-apocalyptic by a dragon comes to mind as one of the few instances where “dragon” isn’t associated with traditional “fantasy”.
I haven’t read the Jack Reacher books, but I bet they are good. I was able to listen to The Terminal List by Jack Carr earlier this year before the show came out on Prime Video. I like reading in different genres than I write typically because there’s lessons to be learned from each one in terms of style, pacing, and voice. I’m trying to go back and read the classics this year to get a feel for what made them great. Amazing how some novels can be so timeless.
Your story sounds very interesting. Sorry I haven’t had a chance to check it out yet as I’ve been swamped lately. I’m pretty ignorant to that time period, so maybe it would be good to dive in and learn more about the Mau Mau uprising (my auto correct changed it to Mad Max! Wow haha).
Yeah, autocorrect is 'too young' to know who the Mau Mau were. Mine has seen the word so many times it doesn't change it anymore, but it still underlines it. I started putting things up on Reddit, trying to figure it out, and I've got a thousand reads for one chapter. So I put up the start of another story I was working on and have 1500 in less the 24 hours. Think I can get them over here to sign up? Nope.
Whoa! That’s pretty awesome. I haven’t figured Reddit out yet. I need to though. If you do, let me know! I’m basically done trying to get subscribers at this point, it doesn’t seem to resonate on most social media platforms. Heck, people I know in person still haven’t done it! Lol
As an author, I definitely don't want to be pigeonholed into a specific genre. Many of my ideas fall into the science fiction or horror genres, but I have quite a few other stories at various stages of development that fall well outside those genres. My focus has always been centered on telling a compelling story driven by the characters populating that story. Focusing on the characters and telling their story helps avoid lazy cliches and tropes and truly engages a reader with a story they won't want to put down. You will have realistic actions, reactions, and interactions from your characters related to the world around them.
I really like that approach. It makes the story feel way more organic and relatable. Sometimes my characters surprise me and push the scene in new directions that I hadn’t planned for and that’s something special because it becomes unpredictable and gripping. When I feel entertained, that’s when I know the audience should feel entertained, or at least its a measure that at least there’s some level of excitement happening, otherwise if I’m bored writing it, then I’m not sure who’s going to like reading it. Anyway, great comment and perspective, John! Thanks for commenting.